Welcome to the No Office - a podcast about work, technology and life from a remote company perspective.
At Nozbe we believe that work is not a place to go - it is a thing that you do. That is why, since 2007, we've run our company 100 % remotely. At Nozbe, there is no office. The No Office podcast is sponsored by Nozbe Teams - a to-do app that helps modern teams do great things. Go to Nozbe.com to learn more.

Hello, hello and welcome to the 2nd season of No Office - a podcast about work, technology and life from a remote company perspective. My name is Rafal Sobolewski and as always I'm joined by Michael Sliwinski. But this time I'm joined by him in person. In Jastarnia, where our Nozbe company reunion takes place. Hello Michael! We did it! We did it! Yes. Oops, I did it… Okay. I can't sing but we did it after two years of not seeing each other and not being able to see each other because of the covid pandemic. And now we are live; we're here and it's so good to have the whole team together we in the meantime we we gained four new team members including Ewelina, who's at the backstage, and finally I could see her. I know how she looks like now. So it's glorious, it's fantastic. Rafal, it's so good so this is really cool to finally see those people. Also Marco is here. , he joined us like one year ago I think, probably, , and we could finally meet him. And - we did it! But before that, we were on a break with our podcast. Yes, we were trying to record the podcast in summer but then we decided: let's take a break. Let's rethink how to record both the English No Office podcast and the Polish Nie Ma Biura podcast. We took a break of the whole September and now we're back with vengeance because we're back with both podcasts and both recorded live here and from now on we will be the hosts of the No Office podcast, the English one, and Ewelina and Magda will be the hosts - the hostesses ;) There was the feminist revolution in the Polish podcast. Exactly. Basically, we were fired. So Magda and Ewelina have just recorded - one hour ago - the Polish version. It was so awesome. Better than our version. That's the good improvement for season two for Nie Ma Biura podcast - the Polish one. But the English - we keep recording.

So I would like to take this moment to apologize to our international viewers that we're not as pretty as the hosts of the other podcasts ;) I'm sorry. But , it's so cool to be back and we will be recording this podcast every two weeks, on a regular cadence, so stay tuned as always every Thursday. And we'll be recording live, right, yes every Thursday at (um, like this one is 4 30 p.m central European time), but we will be recording at 5 p.m normally. As usually. I think it's 8 a.m in western and 11 a.m eastern time for Americans. However they now switch to winter time before us… So it's kind of mixed up but it's in the morning in New York time and California time and it's it's late afternoon 5 p.m here in Europe. This way our American listeners can join live and can see us live every other Thursday. So we're recording this Thursday and in two weeks we'll be back.

All right, Michael, so let's talk about our reunion. What are our main takeaways. So it was really hard to get this organized. I remember like two years ago we booked this hotel for the spring reunion of 2020 and up until March we thought everything was going, , okay. We heard about the virus and stuff but we thought: , it should be fine right? But then it wasn't… So we had to cancel and we decided to stay with the hotel choice because … We already voted the hotel. We chose everything, we checked everything out. , we already did an effort for our research and choosing this hotel. This place here in Jastarnia - and Jastarnia is a very nice, touristic place, pretty remote from a big city and it's touristic but not in October. In October, it's completely empty, which was one of the reasons to go ahead with this hotel. So that we like, , we there were two things: first of all, the whole team had to be vaccinated. So everybody who attends the meeting is vaccinated and second: I wanted people… WE wanted people to be just here - within this hotel… walking around but not mixing with other people in bars and restaurants. As we thought - it would be just too early for that. We were just so happy that we could do a meeting in person. And we did it!

And I was super happy traveling here because I came partly by bike. It was Hubert's idea initially to - he always wanted to travel to the reunion with his bike). so initially there were eight people who wanted to do this, but eventually the weather forecast was very bad, yes fortunately it was. It was a lie though! It was good! The weather on Monday was brilliant - there was no wind at all and it's October here, so the trees in Poland have many different colors and it was so beautiful! And I'm really impressed with the bike infrastructure in Poland right now. It's been a huge improvement over the last 20 years.
I traveled here with Leon and Radek on our bikes, and it was a 60 kilometers ride? and like 90 % of this ride was with a dedicated bike infrastructure. , now it's getting better! The bike lanes are getting better, the whole bike infrastructure, micro-mobility in Poland is taking off which is great. Um, I also wanted to join you for this but because I was coming from pretty far, I had to some get some things organized. Later of course, when I saw the weather, I was completely jealous and I had a really big FOMO attack that I didn't participate in this ride. So way to go, man. , and for me it was the first ever experience that I took my bike to a train and I must say it was really nice. Now, trains have dedicated spaces for bikes and it's after the season so there is no risk that this space would be taken and , I really enjoyed my travel here. First on Sunday, on the train I did my weekly review on my iPad. On Sunday, because I took Friday off, because I knew that on Sunday, I will be on a train and nothing else to do. and on Monday we travel with bikes and I came here so so bust up with endorphins, that I probably was hard to contain by the rest of the team. Hard to contain yes.

So our reunion normally starts on Monday for lunch, so everybody travels Monday morning, you travelled on Monday morning with a bike, but many of us traveled by trains and by by cars on a Monday morning. We have a late lunch, then we just settle in the hotel, then there is of course the state of the union keynote by yours truly about the situation how is Nozbe going and … Greeting new people and just being here with everyone. And then on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, we do things that we're gonna comment in a minute and then on Friday morning after breakfast everybody leaves, so it's three and a half days basically plus travel so it's cool. It's really cool. Okay so maybe let's start off this state of the union because the part of this is that we have gadgets. Yes, exactly so when I do the state of the union, I talk about Nozbe and talk about what's going on and everything but then at the end of this there are gifts - there are gadgets. And it is a cool thing to have gadgets to be able to have things which we can cherish later like for example this T-shirt so this is official T-shirt what does it say Rafal? It says: finally we have a normal Nozbe reunion. Exactly, so finally we have that and then there were more: so a very stylish hat with Nozbe Teams logo: so there you go a very stylish hat.

A blanket for the autumn For late evenings working at home in autumn and thinking about your Nozbe team and of course a hoodie which you could see in the group photo that was the thumbnail of this show. So we got the t-shirt and the t-shirt has a very nice color, so there you go and it says finally we have a normal Nozbe reunion and in their hands and everything it's very nice, very nicely designed and then we have a stylish Nozbe Teams hat because it's going to be cold now in the autumn and you're going to work from home we have a blanket to cover yourself when you're working from home and think about your team. It also has official Nozbe Teams tag, so you'll remember and the tag was attached to the hat and to the blanket by hands yes - the wife wife of Hubert, our designer. So thank you Ania for this and then… Nozbe hoodie - there you go. Also you'll see the Nozbe hoodie of course on the group photo and the thumbnail of this video. Yes exactly. And this Nozbe hoodie can be bought on our Nozbe.com/shop. Oh, that's true! So we have an online shop with our gadgets, so you can also have a cool Nozbe hoodie. There you go.

All right so on Tuesday we start our workshops. Yes. And about the workshops… Well, before this real reunion… What we did were two virtual reunions and of course virtual reunions are awesome, amazing, very cool… But not really… because we're in front of computers again. But there was one thing that we really liked about the virtual reunions and it was breakout rooms that we would split our 20-person team into smaller groups to discuss things in smaller groups. I decided - together with Tom actually - we decided to do something special and to put five tables in the conference room, so that people can be in this sitting by these five tables and they would be mixed and matched for every session. So for the morning session and the afternoon session, Tomasz our CTO, created a special script based on our Nozbe Teams API that basically created a task mentioning everyone and just randomly choosing groups. And we will later publish it on our Nozbe blog, so you can also use this fantastic piece of software to choose groups from your Nozbe team. And it's very interesting that we adopted the way of the remote tool to do the meetings… as a feature and included it to a physical meetings, because it's the other way around many companies did in 2020. They tried to apply the same procedures for meetings and for communication they had in the office when they had to move to #nooffice environment. Okay, that's true. So we took away what's good about Zoom (which is not much - I mean which is not much regarding in person meeting) and and put it here. And the cool thing was that we could do discussions. So we had two sessions about my No Office book which is coming very soon. Yeah, and you received some great feedback from the team. Honestly, I didn't anticipate that there would be so many of good points there. Because like… I remember we were recording some previous episodes about each chapter of your book and I didn't have much feedback for you. But there were some interesting points from different perspectives from people and… I mean… I really wanted the team to read it, because No Office book is our manual. It's how we run things, how we run our company and I wanted our team to give me like candid feedback and they did. And we will incorporate this in the book, because now it's the time when I'm going to edit the book again (because this is the rough draft that you can read right now on nooffice.org) and i'm going to edit it again and when I edit it I'm going to incorporate this feedback. And also the feedback of the launch team which we're going to launch very soon. So it's great that I got so much… we got so many discussions. Before the reunion, I asked everyone to read the book beforehand so that we wouldn't discuss the contents of the book but we would directly go to feedback. And as we do, we have a special project for that in Nozbe Teams and there for each section that we discussed we have a task and people posted their comments, so i'm gonna just first have this impressions from people - how this turned out, and I'll have these comments in Nozbe. Yeah, that was a really great idea that we had this breakout groups of four people. They discussed the feedback on like three-four chapters and then presented it together (the feedback from the group) and then added as a comment to a proper task so you can process it later after the discussion. So this is really important: when you have a meetings and you have conclusions or some feedback, always write it down! And the best place to do it is in comments in tasks.

And one thing I want to mention about the reunion as such: the cool thing, I mean the way to organize a reunion: if you want to do this remember it has to be for the team, so it has to be also done by the team. So, for example, the gadgets… I didn't choose the gadgets - Magda organized the gadgets, but she was asking around, she wanted to know what people want - she was asking them, putting everything in tasks and asking for comments: like what would people like to have, so the idea for hoodies or for the blankets or for the hats… it all was, it came from the team. And the cool thing was that Magda organized it and so she only knew what's coming and so for everyone else it was like a Christmas day - they all had presents and that was great. And also the same thing with the reunion agenda. We planned it and published it beforehand, so we knew what was coming. We knew that we were going to have session about No Office book, so we should read the book before or we were going to have some other things… So yeah, it's really important to get the team involved in organizing this kind of reunion. Yep. And after this workshops we had also team involved in presenting their lifestyle presentation and this is kind of tradition for our reunion. But there's always two or three people that are presenting what do they do in their free time. But I think we should do it after the sponsor break.

Okay, I have some more thoughts about reunion to share, but okay let's do it because this is season two and we prepared a new ad for this new part. See our new sponsor break, let's do this. No office podcast is sponsored by Nozbe teams a to-do app that helps small teams do great things. Let's hear what Nozbe customers say about the product.

Once I started using Nozbe that's when we started to really think beyond like a freelance mindset, to more of a team mindset and the beauty of it is that we can have a remote team - so we could hire people based on their credentials or based on relationships that we had, people that we knew would be really good and didn't have to hire based on location and somebody that's within a mile radius, something close to where we were. Also Nozbe is very intuitive and easy for a team to use, so as we add new people whether it's a contractor or an employee to the team, we can get them set up within with no speed and within really an hour they can see projects and tasks that are assigned to them and start working. So most of our team is really taking those pretty pretty easily.

Okay, so I just want to say big shout outs to Sarah, who did the testimonial. Sarah is one of our business customers in Nozbe and she's amazing. We had a very very cool discussion and I regularly talk to our customers and she gave me lots of really great insights and she agreed to do the testimonial for us so thanks Sarah for being part of our podcast and promoting Nozbe. Thank you.

All right, so I saw that we have some comments from Robert and Robert asked: "Michael, can you provide some insights how to hire your first staff as a remote employee." So for more details it's https://nooffice.org/hire and you will there see a whole chapter about hiring remotely. And like… it's hard because when you hire remotely you have to onboard them remotely, so just like I did with Marco and Ewelina who are here on backstage and you have to like be with them a bit closer, talk to them more often and for example in this sense I think, I should have been better. So, in the first weeks you should be able to talk to them on zoom like every day or every other day to make sure that they feel welcomed and also to provide them lots of information about the team, about the customs of the team (we have it written up on our internal website so we have all the documentation) and also I asked them to review vlogs because again - I vlog every month or every other month to the team. So I ask them to review like the past two or three vlogs so they can just be up to speed what's going on in the team, in the company and use Nozbe Teams. I mean use an application, where everything is structured so there are tasks, there are comments, so they know what to do, they know what they're responsible for. And you know - the struggle is real because it's about incorporating them in the team and I think they suffered it that they couldn't meet us for more than a year and I think they're much happier now that they did.

So that's good, that's why these meetings in person are important. Normally, we have them every half a year and this time we had to have a pause and one of our new employees - another Michael who's the backend developer in the team, he prepared a great presentation about his lifestyle. He's living in a car with his dog, traveling through Europe and mainly through the mountains, because after hours he climbs. He's a climber and he climbs very well and he just gave us all the presentation about the types of climbing, what to do, and how to do it, and he brought props like all the equipment that is required. Even this axe for winter climbing which is just very spooky. And it was awesome! This is what I like about the reunions - that people share their passions, the way they live.

In the past, we had presentations about coffee, about beers, about triathlons, about many things, and this about climbing. This is how you get to know something completely new and a lifestyle that is not yours but it's interesting! And we are curious people so it's good to go, to participate in this and the second presentation was done by Leon. And he prepared a keyboard that is integrated with Nozbe actually so he prepared a keyboard with four keys and it's not only a fidget toy which it is and it's awesome it's called keyboard yes it's mechanical keyboard but it has a usb mini, micro usb and you can connect it to your computer or ipad and these shortcuts are actually shortcuts for Nozbe Teams to go task up, task down, make tasks complete and something like this. So it's really awesome. We will be able to even reprogram it later for different shortcuts if you want to. But anyway, it's a keyboard and it's a thing! And he prepared like 20 of them, so everybody got one - not only me. And which is which is fantastic so it's it's really cool and Leon showed us that it's really cool to have a hobby. To do, to build something. And again he reminded us that right now apart from the pandemic it's a fantastic world we live in. That we can really build things, we can order things pretty cheaply and just prototype things and build keyboards - fantastic! Like Leon got a good point that it's it's very important for knowledge employees like we are to do something creatively outside of work and not maybe not in front of the computer something physical like like this and I think we talked about this when we were discussing Michael Hyatt's book. Also that having this kind of hobbies is very important for maintaining life-work balance or you can be like me and just keep redesigning your home office like like I do all the time. We're going to talk about it in the next step next in one of the next episodes of the show, because again - oops I did it again. I redesigned my home office again and it's awesome, I love it. And apparently it's my fault. And it's your fault! And I bought all that all these things because of you.

So also we have additional team members who are not humans on this reunion. Yes like Michael who was mentioned already - he lives in a car with his dog, so he actually brought his whole home. The only person from the team who brought his home to the reunion and he also brought his dog and Hubert, our designer, also brought his brand new dog. Because they couldn't manage to find someone to take care of her and and we we had doubts if it's a good idea, but it apparently was. Everyone one the team loves it ,every team member of it so we had doubts about it… Like… If we should have pets here and if we bring, if people bring pets now and then maybe it's going to be like a recurring issue or whatever so I think it's I think I gave in basically and said okay Hubert if you want to bring your dog okay we have two dogs whatever and apparently they were hit. We have a shared album on iCloud of the photos from the reunion and half of these are dog photos, well maybe not half of these but quite a lot and you can check our instagram account too. I posted some exact pictures of of our team and and our pupils.

Yes, all right, we have some follow-up question from Robert, because he asked that he's a solopreneur so regarding this he asked specific for hiring his first employee and his first employee - so how it was when you hired Tom like in 2009 or something like this. 2008! So I can, Robert, I can tell you from experience so it was hard because I was choosing a first developer, first programmer to actually take over programming Nozbe, so basically Nozbe was my baby I programmed myself with these bare hands and now I had to give it up to somebody who's much better than me… Because I am - okay programmer - I was like good enough for the first version of Nozbe… but I wanted somebody better to program this so I had an ad for this, I found seven candidates I remember or eight candidates and I assessed them and checked them and my first inclination was to hire somebody close to me because I lived at the time, I lived in Warsaw. I thought somebody from around should be better, but then I found Tom and Tom was just like he looked brilliant on paper and so I thought I would like to hire him but he would live like 300 kilometers away from me. So what we did was that I asked him to come over two times or so. We had lunch, we got to meet each other and to talk about how it might work and then we talked some more on skype, later so it was like a little bit of courting, like I wanted to make sure that he's a good fit for me and he's gonna take over and he's still working with me. So apparently, I made a good choice but then we decided to just have like on the first day of his work we decided I picked him up from his home and we went to my dad's office actually to work together for a whole day and we worked together for a whole day and then we knew that after the whole day that it actually works, that we can work together. So I think we worked one or two days together in the one physical space so it was it was so we were together physically and because again it was my first hire, I really wanted to feel the person to know who he is and after that he went to his home, I went to my home and we were working remotely and the rest is history. So I think with the first hire you need to meet them you should meet them because - again it's a fragile situation. You're a solopreneur so you're really opening doors to your kingdom, to your backstage and you don't want to let somebody in who's not a good fit. So for me, first meeting him in person then talking and having some video calls and then working together in one physical space was a good investment. It paid off. all right any more thoughts about the reunion?

I think also of the one thing we did which I really liked: we published the agenda before the reunion but on the reunion as we had our sessions we were reviewing the agenda and it's good to be it's really important to stay flexible because of the weather for example. We had a plan of having a bike trip on Wednesday and then we realized that Wednesday is going to be the coldest and the rainiest day of all, so we thought: let's change it. Let's make it on Tuesday because it might be better and then on Wednesday we'll do what we were supposed to do on Tuesday and we did it was slam dunk it was perfect like we had a very nice bike trip and most of the team joined and it was fantastic and then next day when it was raining, we were having our sessions so it's good to have the agenda before so that people know what to expect, but it's also good to really be flexible and together with the people just change the agenda if necessary. And to be that flexible. The agenda must be well structured and it was in our case because we kind of did what we don't do usually working in no office environment because we like worked and I worked at the reunion - I mean work plus having fun together like in organized way - having this bike trip from nine to five exactly and after five is it there is a free time for everyone but from nine to five every day like from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and so it's very easy to switch items in the agenda based on the weather forecast. And we're creatures of habits so we made sure that for example we have breakfast every day at eight o'clock to nine and the morning session starts from starts from nine and goes on till one whatever the session is. If it's a bike trip it's a session anyway and then at 1 30 we had lunch and then from 2:30 to 5 we have the afternoon session so it's like very predictable. People know what to expect. They don't have to ask me because in previous reviews we had these moments like people were asking me: Michael what's next, what's going on, like it wasn't good. So now, having this agenda and having it in a dedicated task in a pinned comment and everybody can check it out and can check it out can look it up and nobody has to ask anything and as we revise the agenda, we update the agenda we have the comments so people can always get back to it and make sure that they have, that they see the latest version. Though it's a great example of how teams should be transparent about those things. So it's it facilitates communication totally.

All right, so I have like two more small points but I really liked it that during pandemic, I stopped drinking alcohol and I noticed that many people in our team did the same. Yes, actually it's good for our health and we still have fun. Not a crazy fun like before, but it's good it's good. I really liked it, so really the amount of alcohol in the evenings was like very minimal which is good. On the other hand, I saw that time around people were not as happy to party. We were just sitting, discussing things, maybe playing a little bit and again it's… I think the idea is just to go with the flow. Just not force people to do things that they don't want to do, just like if people just want to chat let them chat. If Marco wants to just be talking to Radek all night long, let him do that. It's they can discuss changing the world and all that stuff - no problem. So it is. Just let people do what they do. Let them be together and also for me for example as the boss… I want to be involved but not also forcefully involved. Sometimes I just don't get involved because I just want people to be together and just form their own groups and their own ideas for what to do and again not force things. Just be.

And the second point I wanted to make is that we also randomize how we are assigned to the rooms because there are two people in the room, so this time I got assigned to the person who snores a lot and fortunately I have my active noise cancelling headphones and I learned how to sleep with it and it really helped. Oh man, so we have double rooms and I was actually in the room with Tom - with my first hire. So I was with Tom in the room and the good thing is that you get to hang out with somebody and I think for the new people it was good to hang out with somebody from the team and get to know them better. On the other hand, if they're snoring and I snore… then it can be an issue but apparently there was a different issue… There was a train at 6am coming and honking and Tom always like woke up at 6am and he said that train was really annoying… Well, I found what i've been thinking I mean they're running this train and and like at 6am come on like you're driving through a village where people are sleeping… Man like… I think they are obligated by law to honk when they near to some crossing with the road. This this is probably it. I have the same issue in my home in summer when windows are open. I hear the trains honking like at 4am, 5am etc ah man okay well anyway we didn't like it.

So I think we can wrap up our thoughts on reunion and we have some time left so let's get geek out. Oh man there's an apple event. You bought a new iPhone so I got this new shiny iPhone 13 Pro and it's really nice. So it's blue, the sierra blue of course. The color. And I have blue eyes so yes… perfect but anyway… I was curious about the new color and it's very nice, although it's really heavy because I had the mini before. So this thing is much bigger but I love it because of the photographs. I post on Instagram for example. The macro photo of the winter cap and it's just amazing and so the new photos and also the 120 hertz screen. I do see the difference and I love it. It's so fluid, it's so nice. I'm a geek - I can't help it. I was tempted to order one for me but actually we ordered one for my fiance, Ania. She used iPhone 12 Mini before just like you and she switched to iphone 13 too - just like you, because of battery life and the camera. With the Mini the problem was the battery anxiety the battery was… [oh there was a plane. Yeah… very low] So the battery the battery was it was really bad in there with Mini. Like after a year it actually degraded like 10 percent. Yeah - actually 13 percent for Ania. Yeah, it's crazy. Pretty - I cannot sell it right now because it has this battery degraded. I will have to change it probably. So the battery got bad and I think this one is going to be better and also a pro tip: so I like the MagSafe Wallet and the MagSafe wallet is very nice. I've been using it with the mini but also with this phone especially this one, that it has it like the back of this phone is pretty slippery but with this, it's pretty nice to handle, even for somebody who has such small hands as myself. So it's really like this thing with this wallet is is very useful and in this wallet if you're curious i'm carrying a spare credit card and driver's license and my photo id and one note of 100 or 50 euro depending where I am, so it's really like a very handy wallet. And also like a very nice gadget and a way to handle this phone a little bit easier as well so that's my pro tip. I really like this MagSafe wallet and anyway I embraced the MagSafe lifestyle so I have all the MagSafe accessories anyway: so iPhone 13 p
Pro we talked that it increased battery life but what I really like what what they did is that… Because they put those new lenses - huge comparing to what they were. they were already huge in 12, right? And now, they are even bigger and because of that they probably also got with the phone to be thicker, so there is more place to battery, so battery is bigger and the screen which is a pro-motion 120 hertz but it is adaptive. Yes. So when you're for example streaming Netflix and watching it on iPhone like this screen like refreshes in 24 or 25 hertz instead of 60 so it doubled the number of hours you can watch streaming services on iPhone. It's incredible.

And the photos… Ania is a great mobile photographer and she actually already took some great macro photos. And this cinematic mode is really cool. Like, okay, it's an exaggeration from Apple saying that it can be used professionally to shoot films but for this kind of great videos - we could even record actually this podcast with this cinematic and put it on Youtube and it would work really well. I think… but anyway again the number of use cases for photography is increased. There's only some very specific photography use cases that iPhone doesn't cover. The macro photos are just so much fun and they're really good. Really well done. The cinematography… I have to test it. I haven't tested it yet. I mean I just got this thing so I'm going to test it with my kids especially. And for me also I should mention the three times zoom. It is really something. Because when you switch from iPhone 12 that had no zoom - it was just the one time and this is 3 times! I really missed it because very often I want to take pictures of my girls running around and I don't want to be like a creeper - standing very close to them. I want to be far away and still take a good picture. Today, I showed it to Magda - our host of the Polish version of our podcast. When she was pretty pretty away from me, I took a picture of her and it was like if she was next to me. So it's really… the three times lens is really good.

And I like that you can just choose your poison - so you can choose if you want the Pro or the Pro Max… but there is no difference in camera. Finally they managed to do it - they managed to do it, so it's the same photo quality. You get the same thing so it's just which size you prefer. And of course, with my small hands Pro Max would never be an option. And that's why I'm really happy with this although really it weighs a lot and it's going to be a difference in my pocket.

And what do you think about the main theme of the conference which was California streaming taking into consideration that Apple is still resistant to allowing people to work from home when the pandemic is over. Exactly… so let's talk about that. I will link in the show notes to my blog post about Apple and about their resistance to work from home. So I like the event that hosted it in California in different places in California including San Diego which is far away from Cupertino, so in many places and I would like them to follow a suit and now let people work from these many places. If California is so great, why don't you let people live in San Diego or Los Angeles greater area or Santa Barbara or wherever and still work at Apple. I know you built this amazing office the Apple Park it's great it's amazing but let people have an option to go there if they want to and not make some artificial dates. Like you have to be there on Monday and not on Tuesday, and then on Wednesday or whatever like… that's… I don't think it's right. I think and I'm really happy that Apple employees Apple people are speaking up and are pushing back and hopefully Apple can do this. Maybe they will budge and they will change and they will be hopefully because otherwise they will lose some talented people for sure… I mean… if anything we talked about it with Marco when we were like here on the reunion: that right now, the good thing is that #NoOffice work in the remote work is a real thing as a real choice, but the bad thing is that now really the competition for talent is worldwide, international actually but for us exactly… so we have to stay competitive for our employees. For our team. To make sure that we are no longer the only option in town. We are no longer the only company in Poland that actually works remotely and not the only company in the world. I mean, we've never been the only company but what I'm saying is that we were one of the rare ones, one of the unicorns or one of the Martians, but now many more people, many more teams, many more companies are hiring remotely and if Apple will not do it well, Apple will lose.

All right, so I think we can wrap up this episode here. So thank you guys for listening and remember that what day is tomorrow, Michael? It's Friday. Yes. So make it Mighty Friday - do your weekly review, plan priorities for next week and learn something new to have a great weekend and I will do my weekly review on Saturday when I travel by train because tomorrow I again hit my bike. Okay and on Saturday I go home and I will do my week review then, so and if you want to support us, please leave us review on Apple Podcast. That's it for today. Say goodbye. So goodbye everyone I'm really happy and really excited that I was here with Rafal. I can touch him, high five! So we can be here in person and it's amazing, it's great! So please stay healthy, get vaccinated and support us if you can and then leave us thumbs up and share this with people who are interested in #NoOffice work and working in a more modern way. So thank you. This episode has not been created in the office but actually it is kind of but this is very special episode because normally in Nozbe there is NoOffice. This is our reunion. your hosts were Michael Sliwinski and Rafal Sobolewski. All the links and show notes you will find at https://nooffice.fm/27/. If you want to support us, sign up for a free account in Nozbe Teams and invite your team members.

Audio version, visual identification and video version produced by Marco Couto, proofreading, support - Magda Blaszczyk, promotion and marketing Ewelina Przywara; the whole production process of this episode has been coordinated in a project in a Nozbe Teams app even though we were physically in the same place, because work is not a place to go, it is a thing that you do! Thank you and see you in two weeks. Remember to have a Mighty Friday, don't cram 20 people on zoom fluorescent lighted office all day long - you probably are going to work from home.